This interview is Part 1 of a discussion which briefly touches on the hidden dangers of Tibetan Buddhism. There are deeper levels to what is being discussed here, and both of us have more to share and more to explain. Subsequent interviews will follow.
May 21, 2023 Interview with Kata
Kata: Do you think you were brainwashed?
Mim: Yes, I think this is what happened to me in the Vajrayana world and especially at that center I was living at. It’s very similar to what people describe who are in cults. There are certain things like sleep deprivation, not having control over your diet, or control over your life, in general. We did a lot of group chanting on a daily basis. It was at least four hours a day but then often there were special pujas that would go on for hours. That does something to your mind. It kind of puts your mind in a very receptive state to being controlled. When we weren’t chanting and practicing, we were working at hard labour. So, this was all new to me. At the dharma center all the buildings were heated by wood stoves. We had a log splitter and we used to have to cut up all the wood for all the buildings. We were constantly adding on to the buildings doing all kinds of construction work. The lama there was always building something new. That was part of his thing, so we were busy all the time. We never really had a spare moment. And then he was the main person. He was always expounding at mealtimes. He kind of had the floor and he would talk and say many things. I guess I would call that brainwashing. Would you?
Kata: Well. In my opinion, you were definitely brainwashed from what you’ve told me. Everyone that commits themselves to any kind of rigid belief system or doctrine is brainwashed to one degree or another. Ideologies and belief systems are programs that condition the mind. However, people can be in a particular system and can still live independent lives to a degree. Say someone is studying philosophy and they are committed to one philosopher’s view. This does not necessarily mean that their entire life is totally controlled by that philosophy. You know what I mean? But when it comes to what I got involved in, my very being was focused upon this one particular lama. He became my whole world. I completely lost my autonomy in every way. The most dangerous part of it was I lost my ability to distinguish right from wrong and black from white. It was destroyed. This was the most dangerous part. That’s when I became completely 100% under control of this person. It was like my mind was completely washed. My mind was completely washed clean of any independent thought. It was like everything was put into my mind. Everything came from outside. Therefore, I was always questioning myself. I constantly assessed my thinking, my feelings and my actions. I compared them to what this lama taught me or told me to do. For example, I would often ask myself: “Is this something he would want me to think? Is this something that he told me to think? Is this how he would expect me to think? Is that what he would expect me to do? Is that something he would want me to wear?”
Mim: Yeah.
Kata: I was completely brainwashed. I wonder why he brainwashed me. What is the motive behind someone who does that? Especially a teacher in the Vajrayana? What’s the motive behind someone doing that to one of their students? What do you think it is?
Mim: Well, I think it’s total control. I think the motive is total control of the person. But the way we framed it at the center where I lived is: “He’s a great bodhisattva who just wants us to become enlightened.” So yeah, it was very similar to what you’re describing.
Everything revolved him; everyone revolved around him. All my thoughts revolved around him exactly like you said. Did you lose your ability to think independently? I did not lose it a hundred percent. And I think that bothered him. I remember one time he said that I always kind of talked back and that I always had something to say about things. He said to me, “Wow, you have a lot of opinions!” But I didn’t talk back to him in public. This was in my mind; these were thoughts in my mind that he was reading, you know. We weren’t supposed to have our own opinions. He wanted us to only have his thoughts and opinions. Our opinions were not acceptable to him. Almost as soon as you met him, he would hand you a set of robes and start pressuring you to shave your head so we could all look the same. I remember when he did that to me, I said “This is like a cult. Why do we have to all look the same with shaved heads? Why is that so important?” We were more interested in inner transformation. But of course, some westerners were very eager to do that too, that is, shave their heads and wear robes. Doing it really pleased the lamas. So yeah, they did it to please the lamas. But for me, it was like “Why is that important? That’s just outer appearance, right?” Right! But I can see now that it puts you more under their control.
Kata: It does.
Mim: And monastic control was a huge thing in Tibet. I remember another woman who later on broke free. After I broke free, I went and talked with her and she referred to it as “monastic control.” That was a big part of it. They wanted you to become monks and nuns because that made you not fit into the outside world so easily. However, you can always counter what I’m saying with: “Well, there’s a spiritual reason for that. The Buddha did that. He wore robes and shaved his head so he could separate himself from ordinary life and become enlightened.” So, we were buying into Buddhism. Not just buying into the lama.
Kata: The Buddha’s teaching.
Mim: If it was about just one person, I don’t think I would have fallen for it. There had been plenty of cults exposed by then. I wouldn’t have fallen into a “one-man-cult-thing.” Never! That is why this is so clever and insidious. There is this whole esoteric and spiritual system supporting it and supporting the bad behaviours of these people. That’s an important difference. It is not supposed to be a cult; is for a higher purpose. It is Buddhism, which is considered one of the world’s great religions. When did it become solely focused upon the lama?
Kata: It became predatory. People got sucked into it. They get controlled by it. It’s good to try and explain the different stages people go through in this system.
Mim: That’s a good point.
Kata: This is important for people to understand–for anyone who may read this. When I was studying and meditating on the stages of the path, the section on the sufferings of samsara, scared me into the path. Cause and effect, death and impermanence. When we die, we will get reborn in the hell realms. These teachings are designed to make you terrified. That’s the whole idea of meditating on the suffering of samsara. It makes you develop the wish to be free from it. It is very logical. But is this stuff true? Does samsara exist? Or is it just a theory?
So, we start getting scared and we look for a way to be free. We are taught the way to be free is to realize emptiness. So, we study it and meditate on it. At this point we are brainwashed. Fear of suffering has gripped us, and we have believed that emptiness is our savior. We are taught that our mothers are also in samsara. Our love and compassion for them compels us to find a way to free them also. We are then taught that the only way to free them is to become a Buddha. How do we become a Buddha? Through the practice of tantra. This whole thing is classic “Problem/Solution” mind control. This is how I was sucked into it.
I wanted to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime. According to the Vajrayana, the best way to do that is to follow a fully realized guru and do whatever they say. I modelled myself on Milarepa. I was taught this was the example to follow. All the so-called “Masters” said that Milarepa is the example to follow in terms of Guru devotion. Not exactly what he did but how he did it, his devotion and faith in the lama. So, I trained my mind in pure view. I trained so intensely that every non-virtue, every contradiction, and hypocrisy I saw as the actions of a Mahasiddha. That’s how brainwashed I was. This is insanity. You lose your ability to think critically. I nearly lost my ability to discriminate right from wrong. I would see him do something, which was harmful to someone, but I would tell myself, “He’s a great mahasiddha. Oh, he’s just purified that person’s negative karma.” That’s insane!
So, I brainwashed myself, right? But along the way of course, I was getting asked questions by him. One time he asked me, “Did you have a wrong view about me?” And I was like, “Oh shit I had a wrong view?” So, then I’d be like “maybe I did.” So, then I would meditate on pure view more, right? And there were all these techniques and things like that, that the lama would use on me, as a way to get me deeper and deeper into losing my ability to discriminate and think independently. So basically, it was like I became a mindless zombie in a way. Does that make sense?
Mim: Yeah, that makes sense. It’s like what happened to me. And I remember once when I had a realistic view of something, he said to me, “Oh, your mind has gotten dirty.” My view was accurate, but he said my mind had gotten dirty, so it was all my fault.
My process was like yours. I developed extremely strong renunciation on the first retreat I did. It was just a three-day weekend retreat meditating on the “Four Thoughts”–the ordinary foundations that turn the mind to Dharma. After that I developed much stronger renunciation and was afraid of going to hell. Also I learned that following a guru was the fastest way to become enlightened and I based everything on Milarepa as well. I followed him in terms of devotion. Milarepa and Marpa were huge. Milarepa was huge for all of us.
Kata: Yes.
Mim: I think it’s very similar. I think those teachers we had were similar. They were both ngakpas and I think that when you live with your teacher in a community it is much more intense. I lived at the site where he lived for several years. When you live with them for a long time they do have complete control over you. Plus, besides the Buddhist practices that develop renunciation I believe he did other things that were more magical. I believe he influenced our minds using magic.
Kata: Yeah. I think that’s what happened to me when I first met the lama who I followed. What he did was so unassuming though. I really don’t know how he did it either. How could he send his mind into my mind? I can only describe the experience.
Mim: Can you talk a little bit about that?
Kata: I first saw him at a teaching he was giving. My initial gut feeling was something is not right with him. The first night after the teaching I had a strange experience. I could see his face in my mind. I could also feel his presence in my mind. At that time, I was also having an experience of what is called the “nature of mind.” I had received direct introduction before from a dzogchen teacher so I knew what the nature of mind was. But this was a little different in that there was the presence of this person in my mind also. It seemed to me that this person’s mind entered into my mind. When I received direct introduction a few years before this experience it was completely different in the sense that there was no presence of someone in my mind. There was definitely an experience of non-duality where my sense of self or the appearance of the self dissolved, but I was also aware of the experience. Someone was with me at the time and I remember telling the person, “I can see the teacher’s face in my mind and I can feel his presence. It is like my mind and his mind are one and I’m having an experience of non-duality.” The person said, “Wow you must have a really strong connection with him.” I said, “This feels strange, really strange.” It didn’t feel scary. I didn’t get excited or anything. I didn’t think well, maybe he is my root guru or a mahasiddha or some shit like that. The experience lasted maybe 10 minutes or so.
The next day he was teaching again. When I saw him, I still had the gut feeling that something is not right with this guy. Looking back now I think I know what it is. I could tell he wasn’t being authentic. He was putting on a show. You know what I mean? I don’t know what happened that night. Whether he somehow made his mind go into my mind or he performed some kind of magic, or it was my mind creating the experience or something else. I don’t know. It definitely was an experience of non-duality and there definitely was a presence of him in my mind. It happened a second time about a year later. But this time I could hear his voice in my mind. He started talking to me. It was like he was sitting next to me; however I was alone. It happened out of the blue. He was telling me something about myself. He was telling me about the nature of my mind. His voice was very clear. I didn’t feel afraid. However, I was surprised by the experience. It felt very strange but somehow intimate. I could feel his presence in my mind. It was a warm intimate presence. Like the feeling when I have hugged him. A few months after this experience I told him about it. He just smiled and nodded his head. I had the same experience another time a few years later.
It is so interesting to me because similar things have happened to you with your teacher. The magic and stuff. It’s kind of like they picked us for a reason. I don’t know why this happened to me. Maybe it was because my mind was open and receptive? Maybe it was because I was naive, or I was just fucking stupid! Like when he first saw me, he said to himself AHA! Here is my target. Then he somehow sent his mind into my mind or did some kind of magic and made it appear that his mind went into my mind, to hook me and pull me in and make me feel that I wanted to follow him. It was like grooming. It’s like the grooming stage of abuse. The abuser or the predator will pick someone. Pick a victim. They are attracted to them for some reason and can see that that victim is vulnerable. It’s like when a lion comes across a herd of animals. They don’t pick the strongest one in the herd. They pick the vulnerable or the weak or the small one or whatever, right? Maybe that’s what happened. Maybe that’s what happened to me, I don’t know. But there could be other reasons why it happened. He may not have picked me. I could be wrong. But because so much bad stuff happened to me when I was with him all those years it makes me think that he picked me to use me for his own personal gain.
Mim: Because you were psychically receptive.
Kata: Right? That could be part of it.
Mim: He could sense that you were….
Kata: I was open to receiving the magic or whatever it was.
Mim: Yeah, yeah. Now, you had already met a dzogchen teacher a year or so before you met him?
Kata: Yeah.
Mim: And you already had developed deep renunciation. And you were studying Buddhism before you met him right?
Kata: Yeah, I was a monk.
Mim: Oh, you were a monk. You took actual monks’ vows?
Kata: I was a monk. I kept my vows really strictly and the center I was at the nuns were completely fucking bat shit crazy.
Mim: You were living in the center?
Kata: Yeah, I was living in the center mostly. We all had nowhere to live, really, not much food, not much money. We just found places here and there to stay. I felt myself getting brainwashed. That was the reason I left. I could see all these things that didn’t make sense. I had many questions. I analysed everything, like the buddha said to do, to analyse his teachings like a gold smith tests gold. But no one supported that, and no one answered my questions in a satisfactory way. So, I left and disrobed later. I didn’t break my vows. I just gave them back. I went back there about six months later as a layperson. I started studying again and felt like I wanted to get ordained again because I could see the futility in the life of a lay person. But I didn’t. One day during class someone said, “Oh, there’s this teacher, named Namkhai Norbu, do you want to go and see him?” And I’m like, “fuck, yeah!” I didn’t know who he was though, I never heard of him but something attracted me to him. That’s when I met him and received direct introduction.
Mim: Was there a teacher before Namkhai Norbu, or was he your first?
Kata: There was a Geshe. A Geshe at the center. I didn’t really think that he was someone that I could follow. I thought he was someone that I could learn stuff from though and I got a lot of teachings. Even with Namkhai Norbu, I never thought, “Oh I want to follow this guy.” I think because he just seemed way too powerful.
Mim: Oh!
Kata: Yeah, it was like being around someone from another planet, when I was with him at the first retreat, when I first met him.
Mim: Wow.
Kata: Like I said, it just was too much. It was like taking acid for five days in a row. That’s how powerful it was. The retreat went for five days. It was like tripping for 5 days. It was pretty amazing.
Mim: That is amazing. Can you talk a little bit about rigpa? About the experience of the nature of mind? What you experienced in Namkhai Norbu’s presence. Can you talk about what that was like?
Kata: Yeah. He does not teach like other teachers. He is a Dzogchen practitioner and he wants his students to practice Dzogchen. His retreats might have an empowerment but the main thing he teaches is Dzogchen. He asks his students to practice Ati guru yoga and to be present. He teaches traditionally, according to “The Three Statements of Garab Dorje.”
Mim: Can you describe Dzogchen?
Kata: Dzogchen? Well….
Mim: In your own words.
Kata: It’s our true nature. Dzogchen is what we are. In Dzogchen there is a thing called self-liberation. Whenever anything arises in the mind, a thought or whatever, it self-liberates. But to really understand this we must have an experience of it. The experience I had at the first retreat with Namkhai Norbu was like this. My sense of “Me,” or “I” had completely disappeared, but there wasn’t a blank nothingness. There was a very open, clear awareness and nonduality. And I understood that everything I was perceiving manifested out of this awareness and was contained in it. This experience lasted for five hours straight.
Mim: And that is called rigpa right?
Kata: No.
Mim: Rigpa just means “awareness,” right?
Kata: Rigpa is not Dzogchen. It is the awareness of Dzogchen. There’s a difference.
Mim: Okay.
Kata: The term rigpa is often used wrongly. Namkhai Norbu is very clear about this. He was a Dzogchen master and a Tibetan language scholar, so he has a lot of knowledge and is very precise. He has explained Dzogchen and its unique terminology like no other lama has.
Mim: I’m asking this because it came up with my friend who is a translator. I remember a discussion about the word rigpa. My friend said she had asked a lama about it. This was around the time that things started to get weird for me. I was studying Tibetan language and was studying an important text about Mahamudra in a small class. We were going over different terminology so that’s why I’m asking you. It’s interesting that he defined it so precisely.
Kata: There is a famous rinpoche who mistranslates an important Dzogchen term called tekcho. He says tekcho means “cutting through.” According to Namkhai Norbu this is completely wrong. Whenever Namkhai Norbu taught Dzogchen he taught tekcho. He would always explain the meaning of the term. He would say many people think that tekcho means “to cut,” like the practice of Chöd–cutting the ego. That’s not what it means.
Mim: Right, they are actually different.
Kata: Yeah, it’s different. The cho in tekcho and chöd are different. The cho in tekcho means “release.” It means “unbound.” The “mind unbound.” He would explain it like this. For example, say there is a bundle of sticks that are bound together with a piece of string. If you release the string, then the sticks will fall apart naturally.
Mim: Oh right. Yes. I’ve heard that explanation before.
Kata: So, this famous rinpoche who goes around teaching can’t even get this term right. Because he calls it “cutting through.”
Mim: So, when he said it’s cutting through, what was he explaining?
Kata: From memory, he said cutting through solidity. Even [the translator] Eric Pema Kunsang gets it wrong; most lamas and translators do as well. They all say, “cut through.” This is why Namkhai Norbu was such a great Dzogchen master. He always referred to the original Dzogchen tantras and he understood every Tibetan word precisely because he was such a great Tibetan language scholar and practitioner.
Mim: Hmm. That’s interesting. So, it means “release.”
Kata: Yeah. When we understand Dzogchen it makes so much sense because thoughts liberate naturally. It’s not like you must cut through a thought and it’s not like you have to stop a thought. You don’t have to do anything in a way. The lama who betrayed me, once authorized me to teach this. I could have become a lama or, what the fuck, and give teachings and stuff but I didn’t want to do that.
Mim: I think this is important to discuss because this is how we got hooked. These teachings are very profound. A great master will first give you a taste of that state of mind. A lama did that to me, I believe that he gave me a taste of his Mahamudra experience. It didn’t last 5 hours, but maybe half an hour. And then he started teaching about it. I had never experienced anything like that. It was so profound and peaceful. It was an experience, a state of mind I had never experienced or imagined could be experienced.
Kata: It feels like you are free.
Mim: Yeah, it felt like complete freedom. I remember thinking, “Nothing could ever go wrong. Nothing could ever be wrong or go wrong again.”
Kata: If it did it wouldn’t matter. It came out of your own awareness; it’s your own creation so…. laugh!
Mim: Yeah, I didn’t arrive at that point on the first experience. So, I don’t know if I had an experience of “pointing out the nature of mind” or not. All I know is that it was just this profound, all-pervading mental peace. It wasn’t physical bliss or anything like that. It was an all-pervading mental peace and bliss and a feeling that nothing could ever go wrong.
Kata: And you were hooked then.
Mim: I was hooked then. I realized it was coming from him. Then he started teaching Mahamudra. That seemed to be his pattern; he would give pointing out instruction and then start teaching about Mahamudra. I’ve heard that Mahamudra and Dzogchen are essentially the same. What are your thoughts are on that?
Kata: Well, I’m not an authority on this stuff. I’ll just refer to what Namkhai Norbu said. He said there is a difference.
Mim: So, you had that experience and it lasted for five hours. Was that pointing out as opposed to a realization? Because a realization wouldn’t go away. You would be in that state all the time. Can you explain more, like how that works? Are you able to call it up any time after that? Are you able to abide in that state?
Kata: Well at that time I didn’t know what the experience was. I had no context for it. I was totally aware of what I was experiencing, and it was completely clear. I have no doubt what it was. But it was new.
In terms of practice, Dzogchen practice means trying to have that experience again and again and trying to make it last longer and longer. And the way we do that is through guru yoga.
Mim: You do that through the guru yoga of Guru Rinpoche visualized above one’s head?
Kata: No. It’s guru yoga of the white “Ah” (ཨ, pronounced ah) and thigle: Ati guru yoga. The visualization of a white “A” (ཨ, ah) syllable and a five-colored thigle and you sound “A” (ཨ, ah). All the visions of thigles that I’ve seen over the years is because of Dzogchen. They are related to sound and light and other stuff. It’s hard to explain why I’ve seen those things. It is said that there is sound and light within our consciousness, which sounds really trippy. That’s why in guru yoga we sound “A” (ཨ, ah). All the thigles and syllables I’ve seen are related to this stuff.
Mim: Did the visions arise spontaneously?
Kata: Yeah. Most of them arose spontaneously, like the massive, huge one, where basically the whole of the earth, sky, and water turned into a massive thigle. I was sitting in the middle of it, and it was like it radiated from me. I was told to sit on a cliff and meditate and I will see something there, but I wasn’t told what I would see. That’s when I saw that huge one and also a sort of symbol in the sky. I also saw dakini writing, apparently, on some trees.
Mim: Writing?
Kata: Syllable writing, the script.
Mim: She was writing a script on the tree?
Kata: No, she wasn’t writing, it was on the tree.
Mim: Oh, I see, you saw the dakini script on a tree.
Kata: Yeah.
Mim: So, it was really there on the trees?
Kata: Yeah, it was really there on the trees. I told the lama who betrayed me, the one who told me to meditate there about it. He said yes, it was dakini script. But I don’t know if he was telling the truth because he’s a fucking bullshit artist.
Mim: But you saw it?
Kata: Yes. I took pictures of it. This particular lama told me a year before, there was this strange script on these trees at that place. So of course, I walked around in the forest and tried to find it and then I found it. And I told him, and he said, yeah. And then I went back there with two friends to the exact same place and the trees were fucking gone.
Mim: Really?
Kata: We couldn’t find them.
Mim: Wow.
Kata: We couldn’t see anything. So, this is where my experiences with lamas are similar to the ones you had with your lamas. These experiences are basically magic. This is where it gets weird. There’s only one word to explain it, magical. I don’t know. I can’t explain all this stuff. I spoke to Namkhai Norbu about some visions and experiences, and he confirmed what they are and it’s completely natural. I’ve spoken to another Dzogchen master about heaps of this stuff that I’ve seen and he said it is related to tekcho and it is normal. He said in the texts it says this stuff is supposed to happen. He said it even describes similar things that I’ve seen.
But it makes me wonder because we are dealing with magicians. In some cases, we are dealing with black magicians. Some of them can apparently send their mind into other people’s minds. They can control the weather and do other things through rituals. So, it makes me really wonder…. you know…. I’m not convinced that all the things are coming from my own mind. Maybe they are, but I can’t say for sure. I am open to other explanations, and I think it is important to be like that. Especially considering that ritual magic is being practiced.
Mim: The experience I had with Mahamudra came from the guru. It didn’t come from me, you know? I remember looking up and realizing that it’s coming from him. He made it happen. You could say he made it happen in my mind. And it’s so powerful and feels wonderful. So, I guess my question is, when does it go from that into something that’s dark and disturbing? Let’s talk about that because, well, I think that this is why I have been so destroyed on every level.
Kata: I can’t reconcile those two things. I can’t. I mean, I can now. I can understand it. But there is still a part of me, the part that was deceived, that is still in shock.
The darkness that I saw coming from this particular lama who betrayed me wasn’t a darkness where he appears as a devil and is breathing fire and stuff. It was deception, coercion, and controlling my mind on such a deep level that I lost all ability to have any independence whatsoever. So that’s the darkness. That’s what Satan is said to do. It is what evil people do, what predators do, what psychopaths do. They want to control the other person completely. What better way to do it than through a spiritual system. One which asks the student to offer their body, speech, and mind to the lama and teaches that this is the way to achieve enlightenment.
That is the ultimate system of control.
I said to the lama, “Here’s my body. Take it. Here’s my mind. Take it. Here is my speech, take it. It’s yours. Do with it what you want because I’m convinced that if I let you do that then I’ll get enlightened.”
Mim: Well, that’s what enlightenment is. It’s the complete surrender of the ego. That’s what we were supposed to do: surrender our egos to this guru who we think is enlightened so that we can become enlightened. We were taught that egos are a negative thing. It’s all about destroying the ego. The gurus supposedly destroy your ego and use all these methods to destroy it and you kind of become one with his mind. But the way I see it now is that it’s a satanic thing, where it’s like they devour your mind. Yeah, that’s what I’m experiencing now, you know? Because I didn’t submit enough, because I had trauma from the first lama. I didn’t submit enough to that teacher and the deity that he controlled or that had controlled him. This is where…. this is where it gets really….
Kata: I think this is the essence of what we’re talking about. For example, if one of our Buddhist friends heard us talking like this, they would say we are wrong. That we made a mistake, that we didn’t submit enough, that we had wrong views about the teacher. You see? This is a sign that our friends are brainwashed by the system. The brainwashing is very strong. I know that one of my friends recently spent time with the lama that betrayed me. Say they spoke about me when they were together and discussed why I am no longer his student. I am sure that this lama would have said that it was my fault, that I had done something wrong, that it was my lack of merit and negative karma, my lack of devotion and I did not study and practice enough. And my friend would agree because that is what he has been taught to believe. But in reality, I left because the lama deceived and betrayed me and harmed many people. In the beginning I thought he was a Buddha because of all the so-called profound spiritual experiences that I’ve had with him. I also did my research on him, and it all added up. So, this is the really interesting part. You said that you didn’t submit enough and that’s where it all went wrong for you, but I disagree. It would never have gone right for you and it’s never going to go right for anyone. Because the deities that are involved in this system, the deities we receive empowerments for, the ones we practice are not what we are told they are. This path is not the path of light. If it was, the Buddha or Guru Rinpoche, who I prayed to with tears coming down my face, would have come to me and said, “You’re making a mistake with this lama. He’s going to fuck you up. You have devotion to the Buddha and you have got commitment to the path. You need to leave this guy and you need to go and find another authentic, compassionate, realized Guru and then follow him and you will get enlightened.”
But that never happened. And it should have happened. This is an important point. In the texts comprising the lam rim it explains the abilities that the buddhas have. Not just buddhas, but arhats, aryas, and bodhisattvas. Some of them are said to be capable of emanating forms to help sentient beings. They can do many miracles like seeing the past and the future, visiting different realms, knowing others’ minds and they are said to be so compassionate that they even offer their own bodies to sentient beings. So, if the buddhas and deities exist and have these abilities, and are compassionate and loving, then why didn’t they help all of those devoted to them when we cried out for help? Why are they allowing all of these lamas to harm their students and the teachings? Why do they do nothing and turn a blind eye to the corruption and abuse committed by those within their religion. It proves to me they have no ability and no compassion. So, I disagree with you when you said you didn’t commit enough and that’s why it went wrong. It went wrong because you were involved with an evil person and with evil deities. This path is essentially Satanism.
Mim: You’re right. Now I see that the deity was controlling the lama. The things he was doing to us caused so much confusion, not just in me, but in many, many people. He destroyed many people’s spiritual path. But the lama was being controlled by the deity. It was completely in him, like that video clip I sent you before we started; it had completely entered him. The deity masterminded the whole thing. This deity has shown me this again and again. Even the head of the lineage said that this deity is the king of all of them. He said, “She is our king.” If she is masterminding all of this evil, how is she a benevolent, enlightened being? I think she picks out people who will serve her and they become enlightened in the system and then the people who she feels won’t [serve her], she destroys.
Kata: I don’t think that we get enlightened.
Mim: You don’t?
Kata: No. I don’t think so. I don’t think anyone has ever got enlightened.
Mim: But what about Namkhai Norbu?
Kata: No.
Mim: Okay.
Kata: Because if there were enlightened beings, they would be helping people like you and me. They would be able to see the three times, the past, present, and future, and they’d be able to manifest, like it says in the texts. Even an Arya can manifest bodies in the different realms spontaneously. They can turn themselves into water. They can turn themselves into a bridge. Anything to help sentient beings and especially those that pray to them. So why didn’t they do this? I’ll tell you why. They can’t or they won’t. When I followed the lama who betrayed me, I was nearly killed and I nearly lost my ability to think critically. He was evil. If he could have, he would have sucked my mind out of me and put it in a box and kept it next to his bed.
Mim: I could say the same thing. I nearly went insane, and I was nearly killed.
Kata: So, to me this is proof that they can’t manifest all of these forms out of compassion. Why didn’t Chenrezig help you? Why didn’t he warn you by showing you everything that was going to happen? Why didn’t he tell you, “You need to get away from this guy and this is what you need to do.” But it never happened. Why?
Because it’s not possible. None of them are truly compassionate. They’re not compassionate deities; they’re not loving deities. They are kind of like demons. I’m not saying this because of what Christianity says about Satan or what-have-you. It’s just obvious to me. The proof is in the pudding. No one helped me. I prayed to Guru Rinpoche every day for many years. [He] never once came to me in any form whatsoever and said, “You need to get away from this guy.” This is why there is no enlightenment. It is not real. I think it is the carrot dangled in front of everyone. That’s how people get sucked into this path which is basically controlled by evil. It is a trap.
Mim: The cheese in the trap are the experiences, the Dzogchen and Mahamudra. These experiences are imparted to us by these lamas. But what about Namkhai Norbu who resides in a state of mind that is supposed to be free? Nothing can ever be wrong or go wrong again? In my case, I was coming out of a very stressful life in New York City with the high crime rate and always having to watch your back and never having enough money. It was like a rat trap. And then suddenly I had this… experience. So, what about the people we know who abide in that state of mind?
Kata: I can’t say that for sure. I don’t know if the experience of Dzogchen is something that is inherent to me. I’ve completely deprogrammed myself from believing anything I was taught. I don’t know if it is my mind itself or if it is created by magic or possibly black magic. Maybe lamas can somehow transfer the experience into someone’s mind to trick them into following the path. This probably sounds trippy but I’m open to other explanations and possibilities.
Mim: And I think that’s it. I think you hit the nail on the head right there. That’s what the exorcist said.
Kata: There’s probably heaps more possibilities. I think that this is a very wise approach. To keep an open mind. Especially because of who we were involved with and the rituals they did. I’m deprogrammed from it all, you know? So therefore, I can think in this way about it all.
Mim: We were born with discernment. I mean, even a small child knows when something is wrong or not right. If he sees something strange happening, he’ll know. So, I think we’re born with that.
Kata: That’s how I escaped. I listened to my gut feeling and intuition and somehow my critical thinking just kicked in. I pushed it away for so long and I tried to train myself to have pure view for so many years. I was completely brainwashed. But it was still there. I really think intuition is the purest thing that I’ve ever experienced, in terms of something real, because I didn’t create it.
All these spiritual practices are manufactured. It is programming. We’ve read and are told it. This creates the concept of it. Then we practiced it. Then we form a belief that it’s true. But what happened to me was a natural thing. My intuition and gut feeling told me something was wrong. It was warning me of danger. It happened naturally. Then my critical thinking rose again, and I was able to discern right from wrong, good from bad again. For so many years it had been destroyed by this person and the situations he put me in. I got to this point where I realized this lama was evil. And what I was involved in was evil. It wasn’t something that I concluded overnight. It’s taken me many years to come to that conclusion. I just looked at the facts of what happened.
Tantric Deception 